In May I wrote:
Although the Asian side of R1a is heavily underrepresented in public data sets we already know the following: From the SNP distribution of the "FTDNA R1a1a and subclades project" we know that the oldest branches of R1a were also found in West Asia.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/1O-R1a.jpg
We also know that one of the oldest branches of the "European" Z283 branch were found in West Asia (including one individual with paternal Kurdish ancestry).
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/maps/z2832.jpg
I believe that rigorous SNP testing of West Asians will lead to many surprises in the R1a tree. Unfortunately, right now most Asian R1a tested individuals are from the Arabian peninsula that doesn't show much diversity.
Today, I want to present the data of a Yezidi Kurd that is R1a* (L62+, L63+, SRY10831.2-, M17-)!
Edit 10/14/2013:
Just to clarify a few things. The R1a* haplogroup mentioned above does not belong to the "Asian" Z93 nor the "European" Z283. It is ancestral to both. So far, more detailed SNP information are only known for three R1a individuals with paternal Kurdish ancestry: one is R1a1a1b1 Z283+, one is R1a1a1b2 Z93+, and the latest one is R1a* based on ISOGG 2013 nomenclature. For all the remaining R1a Kurds it is only known that they are at least M17+ (R1a1a); no SNPs downstream of M17 were determined, so they could be Z283 or Z93 or ...
Given the current Kurdish data, nobody can determine, which subbranch of R1a is dominant in Kurds.
I really doubt R1a or R1a1 M17 originated in asia eastern Europe is a lot more likely. The reason is almost all Asian R1a is under R1a1a1b2 Z93. According to Kurgen hypothesis Spread of Yamna culture with the ancestral language of Balto Slavic and ancestral language of Indo Iranians and Tocherian. Makes sense since Balto Slavic and Scandnavian R1a is almost all under brother R1a1a1b1 Z283. Corded ware culture which is suppose to be decended from yamna dominted eastern Europe and southern Scandnavia and started about 5,000ybp. 4 Y DNa samples from Corded ware culture two had R1a1, one I or J, and one G.
ReplyDeleteThen descendants of Yamna culture in asia which are connected with spread of Indo Iranian and Tocherian languages. Sinshta and Abashevo culture around 4,000-5,000ybp. Also later cultures like Andronovo three Y DNA samples from Andronovo culture in south central Siberia two R1a1 and one C(not C3). The Tarim mummies can definitely be connected even though there is no like totally known culture they are apart of. They are Caucasian people in western China 4,000 years ago with all 7 Y DNA samples being R1a1a and with some west Eurasian "Caucasin" mtDNA two H and one K but vast majority Mongliod mtDNA C4=14, M* probably Mongliod R*=3. The C4's probably had a pretty recent maternal ancestor. It makes sense the tarim mummies are connected with Yamna culture's descendants migrating east and to just about fully European pigmentation genes showed they had pale skin and some light hair and eyes Andronovo culture.
Also Y DNA, mtDNA, and pigemnation genes show that Suspected Indo Iranian Kurgen people in central asia during the bronze and iron age all samples had R1a1 except one C)not C3) from Andronovo. They had mainly typical west Eurasian mtDNA. I organized west Eurasian "Caucasin" mtDNA in central asia from bronze and iron age. 83 samples 29(35%) had U with U5=16(U5a=13(U5a1=9), U4=4(U4*=1), U2=5(U2e=4(U2e1=1), U*=1, U7=1, U1=1.
Almost 100% of Mesloithic and Neloithic European hunter gathers mtDNA was U5, U4, and U2. From Russian hunter gathers all subclades under U5 was U5a then U5a1 and for U2 in modern European samples and ancient European samples I have seen all U2e. The Sycthians who we know spoke a Indo Iranian language and were connected and descended of cultures like Andronovo. The Tocherians who I guess were another Indo European language and in west asia we only know for sure around the middle ages. Are depicted in paintings with obviously features that are almost always European pale skin, non brown eyes, and red hair. So were talking about a group of Europeans with almost only Y DNA R1a1 migrated from Yamna culture suspected to be proto Indo European by Kurgen Hypothesis since 1950's and we already know at least some of their decendants in historical times spoke Indo Iranian language.
I still think it is deifntley a possibility R1a1a M417 and R1a1 M17 originated in west asia because of most likely the y DNA haplogroup spread with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages R1b1a2a1a L11 grandfather R1b1a2a L23 most likely originated in west asia or at least its grandfather R1a1a P297.
"I really doubt R1a or R1a1 M17 originated in asia...I still think it is definitely a possibility R1a1a M417 and R1a1 M17 originated in west asia..."
ReplyDeletePlease decide.
I'm not surprised at all. R1a must have coalesced in West Asia before becoming an important European lineage, just like what happened with its "brother" R1b. Less clear is what happened at downstream levels between R1a1 (still surely West Asian although also found sometimes as R1a1* in Europe) and R1a1a1b (S224/Z645, S441/Z647), where the numerically large European (R1a1a1b1a - S198/Z282) and South Asian (R1a1a1b2 - S202/Z93) branches diverge.
ReplyDeleteSee for details: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/10/finally-some-inmproved-knowledge-of.html
Maju R1a seems much more European than west Asian I don't think we should assume it also probably originated in west asia. Like I was saying archeiology shows a Yamna culture (Russia and Ukraine) descendants migrating into asia starting 5,000ybp. Also in those culture the DNA samples have pretty good amount out of 83 samples 35% typical European Mesloithic-Neoithic hunter gather U5, U4, and U2. They had pale skin and high amount of light hair and eyes around the same percentage as in central, eastern, and northern Europe. Out of 17 Y DNA samples 16 had R1a1 and only one had C(not C3) probably inter marriage with Mongliods which pops up a ton in their mtDNA. We already know at least some of the European heavily U5, U4, and U2 and Y DNA R1a1 people spoke a Indo Iranian language because groups like Sycthians were recorded. Also there was another European looking people in western China who spoke a Indo European language at least in the Iron age the Tocherians they were absorbed into bu Turkic speakers and became modern Ughur which can explain R1a1a1b2 Z93 in western China.
ReplyDeleteThe evidence if so much that in my opinion there is no doubt almost all R1a(specifically R1a1a1b2 Z92) in Asia comes from eastern Europe and spread of Indo Iranian and I guess also Tocherian languages maybe other ones too. The brother clade R1a1a1b1 Z283 n Europe with out a doubt in my opinion was spread by Corded ware culture also descended from Yamna. The distribution of R1a is incredibly similar to Corded ware culture. It is even very popular in non Balto Slavic speakers in Germany(mainly eastern) and Scandinavia. Scandinavia even has its own subclade R1a1a1b1a1 Z284 brother to Balto Slavic ones. I bet before R1b1a2a1a1 U106(and other minority R1b in P312 and downstream) spread in Sweden and Norway starting 3,500-4,000ybp that the people there had almost as much R1a1a1b2 Z93 as most Balto Slavs today and probably spoke a related language. Same for people in central Europe before R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic and Italo Celts spread.
R1a1a1a L664 Cousin to Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian Tocherian R1a1a1b S224. Is mainly found in western Europe may have been brought as a small minority with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages. Since Germanic and Italo celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 grandfather R1b1a2a L23 or its Grandfather R1b1a P297 originated in west asia. I guess that can also be used as evdidence R1a1a1 M417 originated in west asia and split into R1a1a1a L664 and R1a1a1b S224 while in Europe, But it can also be used as evidence R1a1a1 M417 also originated in eastern Europe because it could have been picked up while around Ukraine and Russia.
Just for the record, I'm not discussing with "Barak", whom I banished from my blog on accounts of racism and other annoying behavior.
DeleteBarakObama the problem is that R1a* without any specific mutation is not found in the Pontic-Caspian steppes (as far as I know).
DeleteIt would be interesting to know the STRs values of this R1a*. So far we have only Western European samples (the Isles, Germany, Italy) which belong probably to the same haplotype.
ReplyDeleteWhere particularly in West Asia?
ReplyDeleteHey good for you! but boy didn't that r1a just spread they obliviously like to travel.
ReplyDeleteDo you plan on updating your work based on new Y17491 branch with members from Kuwait, Turkey, Lebanon.
ReplyDelete